S.P.E.W. Term XVII, Activity #2: The Logistics of Freeing House-Elves

[mandyloo.livejournal.com]

By popular demand, I bring you our next activity- a discussion!

Activity: The Logistics of Freeing House-Elves
Dates: Now until 11:59 pm July 12, MST (5:59 am July 13, UTC)
Points: 10 points for first comment, additional comments 2 points each, up to 30 points. Points for bonus items if you have them.
Details: Hermione was adamant about winning better working conditions, fair wages, and time off for House-Elves. But it takes more than wanting something to make it happen. How would you convince a house-elf that they needed to be free? How would you convince the Ministry that their freedom was necessary?

Initial comments (for 10 points) must be at least 4 sentences long. Additional comments should be at least 2 sentences.

Ideas for talking points:
~ What exactly should we change for House-elves?
~ How would you go about talking to this with the house-elves?
~ How would you bring this up with the Ministry?
~ How would you promote this with the general public?
~ Feel free to reply to others' initial comments when making your later comments. But please be polite! No bashing other people's ideas, but you don't have to agree with them either.

~ Sign each comment with your Name/House! Failure to do so means no points for you!

~ Remember, you must be on the roster to get points, so be sure to sign up before the activity ends!

kilobites , silvertigerx - you will each get +5 bonus points for suggesting this activity, if you participate! :)

Comments

[fvck.livejournal.com]

I believe that the key to house elves' freedom is knowledge. The more house elves know about their working conditions when compared to the rest of the world, the more they will be willing to break free of the bonds of servitude, or at least take some vacation time. I also believe that the more the Ministry knows about house elves, their treatment, and their customs, the more able they will be to help house elves everywhere.

Of course, I still believe that in the end, the decision is up to the house elf. As long as they are aware of what their options are, I believe that if they choose to serve as a living, that's their prerogative. However, house elves like Dobby (I'm sure there are lots more charismatic, leader types among house elves!) could serve as a wonderful rallying point — if other house elves can take a lesson from the late Dobby, they will probably be much more likely to weigh their options more thoughtfully.

Caitlin // Ravenclaw

[kimberry531.livejournal.com]

I would agree that giving the elves more information is a good first step. I think if they are given the information and they fully understand it, then they can make a fair decision.

Kimberly\Gryffindor
2

[los-york.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you. If the house elves have enough knowledge what's out there, they can easily make their own decisions and not get lost with everything. And it's their own choice to leave their home; some of them actually like where they work, i.e. Kreacher.

Olivia//Gryffindor

[cyyt.livejournal.com]

I think they already know about their working conditions compared to the world; they aren't living in a box, neither are they stupid. It's just that they don't want any of these benefits that could be given to them.

I don't know if the house-elves would follow Dobby. They didn't seem very pleased when they heard he was getting paid...

Candice//Gryffindor

[prongsy.livejournal.com]

I agree. Knowledge on ALL sides would be essential. Elves need to experience tastes of freedom, be allowed to own things, be things, and humans need to see that elves are thinking, feeling creatures, too.

Beth | Gryffindor

[kissoffools.livejournal.com]

I think the most important thing when it comes to the logistics of freeing house elves is choice. It goes hand-in-hand with knowledge, really. As we saw from Dobby and Winky and the other Hogwarts elves, many of them genuinely enjoy the work they do for wizards. And I don't think we should say that no house elves should be allowed to work for wizards - that's like saying that no human is allowed to be someone's cleaning lady. Some people genuinely enjoy doing that kind of work.

Each house elf should, however, be given that choice. They should be presented with all the facts - other career possibilities, mostly. If they choose to stay and work, lovely. If they choose to pursue something else, they should be allowed to do that. But it should be their choice, not the choice of anyone else.

If an elf does choose to stay and work for a wizarding family, however, I think there should be laws in effect that ensure that they're treated fairly. They should be given wages, and either lodged or fed, and given vacation time and health benefits. Because while they may not be technically human creatures, they speak human language and engage in human activities. Not to mention they're doing someone's job for them. They should be taken care of too. The position of housekeeper should be just that - a job, not a life sentence. And it should be treated as such, with all the same benefits that another job would provide.

Janna/Hufflepuff

[kimberry531.livejournal.com]

So what would you propose the choice be - to be an indentured slave or not to be? If they chose to be... it seems like most House Elves are inherited from family - this makes me wonder how the system would be set up if this were no longer the case.

Kimberly\Gryffindor
3

[nicccc.livejournal.com]

Firstly, I think that humans looking at house-elves and dictating that they know freedom's best for them is the same sort of arrogance and entitlement that allowed for humans to enslave house-elves in the first place. It still reeks of stripping the house-elves themselves of a choice in the matter, and how is that a step toward equality in the magical world?

The process of freeing house-elves is not something that can be done (successfully) over night, or even over several years, in my opinion. There has to be an interest in the house-elves themselves for such freedom, and that interest has to be perpetuated amongst the elves themselves. Humans might drop the initial thought, but outside forces alone are not going to change the value system of an entire people - it just won't work in the long run, and it may breed contempt for the so-called liberators. You just can't force your beliefs on another group of people - it's not right, and it speaks to a lack of understanding or willingness to. Though the house-elves' highest law may seem degrading and wrong to our human eyes, even if house-elves are what they've been made by wizards, we must still recognise that it is now part of their culture, and we shouldn't strip them of that without so much as a by-your-leave just to ease our social conscience. As I said, the house-elves have got to want freedom for themselves, and they have got to be clamouring for it.

How to make freedom enticing for the elves so that they might start such discussions, though? With regards to wages, what value has a knut, sickle or a galleon to a house-elf? Why should they want such things? I don't know the answers to these questions, but that's when a good sit-down with a group of elves would be nice. How can we help them to freedom if we don't know what their idea of freedom is?

The general public generally haven't got house-elves, but in lieu of having anything else to fret over, you can pop a celebrity on an advert beseeching others to free the elves and petition to the Ministry, and any number of the random public will go with it. It's not the most sincere thing, but it seems to be the way things work anymore.



TL;DR - If you want the elves to be free, the elves themselves have got to want to be free, and you must be willing to understand that our ideas of what constitutes freedom may not be the same thing.


Nic, Gryffindor

[kimberry531.livejournal.com]

We basically agree. It seems from your second paragraph that you don't think action can be taken until there is very nearly a House Elf uprising. What measures would have to be taken to get the Elves interested in their own affairs? From what we've seen, they just want to be left alone where they're happy.

Kimberly\Gryffindor
4

[kimberry531.livejournal.com]

I think the approach that Hermione Granger takes to House Elf Rights is completely the wrong one. She charges in and demands that they stop doing what makes them happy, because to her human logic it is "wrong".

The point she is missing, however, is that this is what they enjoy. As is seen with Kreacher, when House Elves are treated with kindness, their lives are very happy - they enjoy their work. If you recall from the earlier books, the other elves were flabbergasted and confused by Dobby's behaviour. They don't understand freedom. I imagine that if we "freed" all of the elves, they would all end up as paid servants, because it is all they know.

The question then becomes should we pay house elves, or is room and board their compensation? Perhaps if their work was traded off for a place to live, and they were merely employees and no longer family property, that would be a better solution? Perhaps the freedom to "quit" and walk away on their own is enough of a difference?

Kimberly\Gryffindor

[los-york.livejournal.com]

Have to agree with you there about how they enjoy their work. Kreacher did like working with the Black family because he was actually treated with kindness. I don't think we should pay theme ASAP because some of them don't have the knowledge to use money. Maybe if we teach them about how to use it, we could pay them.

Olivia//Gryffindor

[musikurt.livejournal.com]

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. has a famous quote associated with him that goes "Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed." I think that even with SPEW advocating for better treatment for House Elves, it's going to be a difficult road until they themselves get involved in the discussion. By opening avenues to educate them and also engage them in determining what the best system would be to afford them humane treatment as well as ensuring that people aren't acting on their behalf to fight battles they don't want to be fought, hopefully a better and more effective solution can be devised. As long as House Elves don't object to their treatment (but is this really because they LIKE it??), it's going to be hard to convince some of the die-hards that they really want to be free.

Curtis//Ravenclaw

[kimberry531.livejournal.com]

I feel that even with education it would be hard to convince the Elves that they're being mistreated. To them, they've only known this for as long as history can tell. Out of curiosity, how would you suggest getting them interested in starting a movement when they have no desire for change?

Kimberly\Gryffindor
5

[nowitsrushmore.livejournal.com]

While I understood where Hermione was coming from, I didn’t necessarily agree with her approach. You can’t go in and force the house-elves to stop doing what they have been taught to do, not to mention some elves actually like their work. What you can do though is inform them on the way things work for other people, and how that is different from how they are being treated. You can give them the knowledge to make their own choices about what they want to do. Like I said, some elves like their job and might not want to be free. In that case, they should be given proper living arrangements and food, as well as be paid for the work they are doing. I also think they should be given some vacation days, or some days off every once in a while. Basically, house-elves are doing a job; they are working, so they should be treated like any other employee with the same benefits.

Another suggestion would be to take one thing at a time. When you have grown up being taught to do things a specific way and follow strict rules, it’s hard to just change everything at once. That might overwhelm them, and we don’t want that. So maybe try and introduce one new thing at a time and let them get used to the new addition before adding the next one, until all the changes have been made.

Aimee//Hufflepuff

[kimberry531.livejournal.com]

Do you think that simply informing the Elves that their way is "different" is enough? I almost feel that you could explain in great detail that their way is slavery and that's it's wrong and yada yada and their response could very well be, "Yeah, so?" However I would agree with all of the "benefits" you suggest for Elves who wish to continue working.

Kimberly\Gryffindor
6

[princessbloomy.livejournal.com]

I don't really agree that they have to be free, but I think they should have better conditions where they work.
They are used to cleaning and working for wizards, it's in their nature, I don't really think that could be changed, so they should at least get paid for their hard work in a way. You can't make someone do something, if he doesn't wish to and most elves don't want to be "free".
Okay, some of them would of course want freedom, but not all of them, some will never accept that they can be free, they feel it's disgraceful and giving them freedom would only hurt them, what I really wouldn't want to do.
I would try to talk to someone at the Ministry, maybe to the minister himself and try to reason that those elves, who wish to be free, must be freed. It's inhuman to have someone to do your (dirty) work when he takes no pleasure in doing so.
For those elves who wish to work and serve wizards, I'd demand better treatment and payment for their work.

Victoria//Slytherin

[cyyt.livejournal.com]

Frankly, I don't think they want to be paid. Look at the other house-elves' disgust when they talked about Dobby being paid (if I recall correctly). Also, I don't think the Minister would actually want to discuss such business. He does benefit from this (if he does have a house-elf). I think the whole wizarding community has similar feelings to this; it's a win-win situation for both groups: house-elves want to work like slaves, the wizards receive free labour. So until someone (like Hermione) feels like that, nothing will be done.:|



Candice//Gryffindor

[cyyt.livejournal.com]

I think the most important thing to change is their mindset. Case in point: Winky. She just lives for the Crouches; without them, she gets drunk, doesn't bother to do her job, even when Dumbledore is so kind as to offer her one--it's plain unhealthy.

She is a nice house-elf by nature; I think all of them are, but they can be quite stubborn.

I don't think Hermione should have blatantly shoved clothes in their faces. Firstly, they wouldn't have understood her intentions. I think what could be done is to talk to them, as individuals, to gain their trust. As seen, Kreatue's instant change of heart when Harry gave him Regulus's locket. They need to find something to connect with the house-elves, before trying to take on this task of 'freeing' the house-elves.

Dobby, though, is one big outlier to this whole thing!

Candice//Gryffindor

[kimberry531.livejournal.com]

I totally agree. No matter how much you talked to her, Winky is one of the elves that just WILL NOT GET IT. The idea of freedom to her is totally incomprehensible. Not being enslaved means having no purpose - homeless, jobless, goal-less. I imagine to a good 95% of the Hosue Elf population, this would be the case, and trying to get them past that fear will be a big job.

Kimberly\Gryffindor
8

[supremacy-born.livejournal.com]

I think that the biggest problem House Elves currently have is their complete and utter ignorance regarding their rights. They remind of a minority culture in a Western society - they stick together, they stick to what they know, they have their traditions and rules, and they can't possibly imagine the world being any different. That is why they act in such a volatile manner against Dobby, who seems to have complete and utter disregard for the traditional way of life. He's a rebel, an instigator, someone who is trying to disturb the peace and tranquility of their lifestyle - or that is how they see it anyway. What really needs to happen in order for the house elves to change their mindset is quite simple - they need to be exposed to the world, to a new and completely different kind of environment, and they need to be reptitively told that they have free will, they can choose whom to serve and why, and they have the right to be free and go wherever they wish. I think this is a monumental undertaking because their behaviour is so deeply ingrained into their personalities, but you have to start somewhere! And I think that starting with the house elves at Hogwarts would definitely be a good starting point. :)

Eve//Slytherin

[cyyt.livejournal.com]

I feel that they might get scared off if they're exposed so suddenly to a new world and given free will, all at one shot. After all, our parents held our hands too, when we were learning to walk. House-elves are a stubborn race, so much that even repeating over and over that they're 'free' might not work with them.

Candice//Gryffindor

[kimberry531.livejournal.com]

Do you think that their lack of interest is due to lack of education? What I mean is, do you think that informing House Elves that their way of life is slavery and is unfair, do you think this would be enough to spark a reaction from them, or would the simply not care and continue their way of life?

Kimberly\Gryffindor
9

[mmailliw.livejournal.com]

It appears that as things currently stand, most elves do not want to free. This could be due to one of two things: either it is in their nature to love to serve or their preferences have been permanently warped by that bonding spell cast on them a millennium prior.

Consequently, we need to find a way to learn which of these hypotheses are true. After all: even though no human in their right mind would dream of having their head on a stick, this may be the natural heaven for house-elves! If it turns out the bonding spell has warped their brains, the natural thing to do would be to reverse it; if not, we should focus more on the quality of employers.

William//Slytherin

[kimberry531.livejournal.com]

Interesting theories. If it were the first - their nature is to serve - do you think they should be kept as slaves, property to the family? Or do you think that they should be treated more as employees and given some sort of compensation for their work and loyalty?

Kimberly\Gryffindor
10

[peyton07.livejournal.com]

I think house-elves should do what they want to do. If they want to serve snotty Purebloods or wear tea cozies on their heads, live and let live. However, if they are being abused, there need to be Ministry laws in place to protect them and get them out of that situation. I think a program like Witness Protection could work; the house-elves wouldn't want to stop serving but they should be moved to a foster family of sorts where the abusive family cannot follow.

If you want to get sneaky with the SPEW campaign, you could teach the house-elves annoying songs like Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up" or "This is the Song that Never Ends." If they are continuously singing annoying songs, their families might get sick of them and kick them out. Then, Hermione gets her wish at any cost whether the elves she's "helping" like it or not ^^

Peyton//Ravenclaw

[kimberry531.livejournal.com]

hahaha. I like the way you think. Personally, I think they should all be taught James Blunt songs. Though this "freedom through annoyance" thing might backfire - what if the wizards just get so fed up that they simply snuff them on the spot?

Also - WIN for the icon! I AM NOT TOPH, I AM MELON-LORD! MUAHAHAHAH. K, done nerding it up.

Kimberly\Gryffindor
11

[los-york.livejournal.com]

I feel that house-elves should have the choice to be free. We can't free them all at once because some of them don't have to knowledge of how the real world works. And also some of them are actually treated with respect in their homes. If the elf wants to stay at the home for a short period, maybe there should be a contract/bond between the master & the elf of how long they should stay in the household. And the elf would get the choice how long they want to stay. To promote this to the public, if they treat their elf with kindness and respect, the elf might like the home and could stay longer.

Olivia//Gryffindor

[prongsy.livejournal.com]

But, even if they're NOT treated with respect, like I imagine many of the other elves at Malfoy manner weren't, then how would they even know to aim for respect? Abused children continue the cycle of abuse because they know of nothing else. Sure, they're "free" of the abuser when they reach maturity, but they then turn around and abuse their children and/or seek abusive relationships. Very few are strong enough to break the cycle like Dobby did. They might want to stay because they don't know any better and that's where education is key!

Beth | Gryffindor

[kilobites.livejournal.com]

I don't think that House Elf freedom can begin with a person telling the House Elves that they know what's best for them. While I appreciate Hermione's efforts, I also think there is an element of elitism, there. She is making assumptions, and doing so aggressively. Honestly, with the mindset the House Elves have at the present time, making aggressive overtures towards trying to free them and assuming that that's what they want is not going to be effective. The most important thing in order to assure House Elf freedom would be to attempt to slowly change their mindset. It's not going to be something that can happen in days, or weeks, or even months.

It would probably take several years to even begin to change the paradigm and the mindset, and I don't think that things will be truly changed for quite some time. It may take decades before there is sufficient support for House Elf rights so that they can really be free. The interest has to be perpetuated by the House Elves, too. It can't just be a human thing inflicted upon them because humans believe they know what is right.

I think it's important to figure out what their motivations are. I know that a lot of people would argue for wages for them, but perhaps money is not the thing that is driving them or would be enough of an impetus to want freedom. Find out what they want, and try to help them achieve that through seeking their freedom.

Tasha//Gryffindor

[los-york.livejournal.com]

I really like your idea. For the elves, it would take a very long time for them to freedom because they are very stubborn and seriously have that mindset of the outside world. And in the end, it's their own to be free or not.

Olivia//Gryffindor

[clzair.livejournal.com]

I think that wanting to free house-elves is a good sentiment, but it's going to take a lot of work and a lot of change in the minds of the elves. I don't think it will be hard to eventually to convince humans that we can get along without them, but the elves are clearly not so keen on it.

Maybe freedom isn't exactly what elves need for the moment, but maybe they just need some sort of inner freedom within their enslavement. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I think house elves need to change things very slowly, and just need to understand things like not needing to punish themselves harshly for bad things, having the right to a comfortable living space and fair treatment in their home, and just having a healthy lifestyle. This would mean that the elf would still be "bound" to their family, but in a less demanding and all-intense way.

It would probably be important to set up some sort of house elf congregation, with elves like Dobby (though maybe less intense), and also elves like Kreacher and Winky. With a good representation, you would be able to get a fair view of how changes would go over in the elf community. This congregation could meet with humans and decide the best course of action for small time periods.

Claire//Hufflepuff

[los-york.livejournal.com]

I like your idea. Like if you change the way you treat them at home better, they won't have to worry about leaving them. Try and make them a part of the family.

Olivia//Gryffindor

[whitestar.livejournal.com]

I think maybe it's not so much freeing the house elves as creating a better working situation for them. Requiring masters to not be abusive, decent living quarters and time off to visit family and friends. After they've adjusted to this change in the way that they are treated I think they may begin to see that there is more to life than slavery. Give them a taste of freedom while they are still slaves, then they won't be as frightened of it when they are given the option of being free.

The Ministry would have to pass a law to make sure that "house-elf rights" are followed. I think masters would be less hostile to changing living conditions as long as it didn't mean they'd lose their servants. Those who already treated their house-elves well wouldn't need to worry about the law.

Whitestar//Ravenclaw

[los-york.livejournal.com]

I like your idea about giving them a vacation for the elves. It's like another view of freedom for them and a nice thing for the masters to do for their elves. If they do it more, the elves might not leave.

Olivia//Gryffindor

[cyyt.livejournal.com]

What would house-elves do with money? I do agree that they should be treated with basic human rights, despite them not being human. As seen, they can talk, walk, think, feel... they can do almost everything humans can.

Candice//Gryffindor

[mrschucknoblet.livejournal.com]

I think the best way to go about establishing freedom for house elves would be to talk to the house elves first about what they want. One of the biggest problems involving house elves is whether or not it is in their nature to serve and if they really love doing it, or if they have simply been evolved to believe that this is all they can do. If they are happy the way they are, then I think they should be able to chose to continue that lifestyle. The key to this argument to me is choice. The elves should be able to chose how they want to live their lives. If they want to continue living as they are then fine, but I think that some other options should be established (wages, holidays, working hours, etc) in case they do want to branch our and try another part of life.

Courtney Rose//puff

[los-york.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you there. You can't free all the house elves at once because they don't have a lot of knowledge what is out there and also some of them are actually happy in their homes.

Olivia//Gryffindor

[prongsy.livejournal.com]

I honestly think if the Wizarding world is ever going to convince House-Elves to push for freedom, then the first step is the Wizards themselves. Lovely as it is to convince an elf that they should want freedom, but if society as a whole looks down upon them, what would that freedom really be? Sure, they wouldn't have to work for Wizards, often enslaved, but where would they go? Wizards still wouldn't accept them as equals. They'd religate them off into their own areas of towns or, like dragons and giants, round them up and sequester them somewhere. Why then would any sane creature yearn for that? It's got to be more of an equal symbiosis between the two groups. Wizards have to want house-elves to be free. Or, at least, want them to be equals. And while the Wizards alone can't change the course of things, they can create a warmer world that the house-elves would want to work with.

Beth | Gryffindor

[goddess-of-ice.livejournal.com]

I agree with this full-heartedly. I think that having someone that others look up to advocating for elvish rights would definitely help. I don't see why Harry Potter himself shouldn't get involved.

meghan//Gryffindor

[goddess-of-ice.livejournal.com]

I think the older house elves are so set in their ways that it will be near impossible to change their minds. It would be best to start working with the ministry and the general public. Laws to enforce the proper treatment of house elves should be the first thing to happen. They would function much like laws to protect children because the elves are very much like children in their automatic obedience.

Meghan//Gryffindor

[flipflop-diva.livejournal.com]

Please don't delete till August 1! This is for a current Dueling Club activity!