hh_clubs | Potions Club: Term XXIV

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Potions Club: Term XXIV - Activity #1

Activity: Ethics Debate
Points: Long Debate - 10pts initial comment/2pts for each subsequent comment of substance; 30pt max
Deadline: Friday, September 21st - 11:59pm UTC
Details: Potions can be a tricky business with some magnificent results. But should it be monitored and if so, how? The Ministry is considering instituting a control over Veritaserum and we're going to discuss whether or not that's necessary and/or a good idea.

For this particular debate, we'll be discussing Veritaserum use, control, and distribution. Initial comment should be at least 100 words and each subsequent should be of some substance and not just "I agree!", even if you do. Why? Anything else to add?

Some things to consider:
As such a potent and effective potion, does it need to be controlled? At first glance it's fairly innocuous. It can be used in a variety of circumstances for differing reasons. Should it be controlled by the Ministry and, if so, how? Should just anyone be able to make it? And when used by the Ministry, should they just be used whenever interrogating a criminal or only in certain circumstances?

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Questions, Comments, Concerns?

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Based on how dangerous the effects of Veritasum are, there is no way that the potion should be able to go completely unregulated. The biggest dangers of the potion are when someone is given it without being aware of it: for example, offered some 'tea' which turns out to be brewed with the Veritaserum. When someone is placed in such a situation unaware, he or she might end up having to give up classified or otherwise sensitive information under the influence of the potion. Therefore, I propose that Veritaserum be given a chemical marker such that if a drink contains enough Veritaserum to effect the drinker, it glows a particularly unnatural drinker that lets the drinker know "WARNING: THIS TEA CONTAINS VERITASERUM - DO NOT DRINK IF YOU WANT TO AVOID TELLING THE TRUTH"!

William//Slytherin [134]

The idea of being given tea without being aware that it contains Veritaserum freaks me out, and I'm not even someone who has many secrets. I feel I'm pretty open with my opinions and feelings. But even still, the idea of people finding out information about me through deception and trickery strikes me as extremely wrong and invasive.

Liz | Gryffindor

Yeah, that idea really freaks me out as well and I actually don't have any secrets at all, nor do I tell lies (except very few little white lies that are absolutely necessary and probably no one would show any interest in those), but just the thought of drinking somethign with a foreign substance in it is really horrible; I wouldn't approve of ths if it were any potion - but just as you said, the idea of people finding out information about me through a way like this really isn't pleasant at all.

Avi//Hufflepuff//7

I'm not all for controlling/regulating eritaserum since, after all, it is only a potion that makes you tellt eh truth (yes I know how dangerous the truth can be) but this is a really good idea. I'm all against Veritaserum being abused and used without people knowing, so the glowing effect when put somewhere is really awesome. Those who drink it and know what it is won't be weirded out by it and those who are about to drink it and don't know it's in there wil be warned, this is kind of perfect and would probably keep many people from using it without other people's knowledge.

Avi//Hufflepuff//8

I think Veritaserum (or any potion that could make a user do the opposite of what they may want, really) should be monitored. With Veritaserum especially I think a good comparison could be made similar to those against the Patriot Act (however I'm still a bit too drunk to do that - something else get on that, please XD). There's just something extremely... squicky about the idea of someone finding out another's secrets without their knowledge that I think should be monitored and restricted and used only with full agreement of the person(s) involved. And really, I can't think of any reason is SHOULD be used outside of Ministry actions (which even then the Ministry is shown to be somewhat corrupt~ during certain actions), and should therefore definitely be monitored in the administering of Veritaserum.

Liz | Gryffindor

Yeah, Veritaserum being abused really is an idea that makes me wince; but the problem is - how can you really control Veritaserum? Also, I think that Veritaserum within the Ministry can still be terribly dagnerous - probalby even more dangerous than somewhere outside, because... Well we know the people working there, and in the hands of Umbridge this could lead to a bigger disaster than she created in Hogwarts. I can't really think of any reasons to use it ousdie the Ministry as well, except maybe in the case of Bartey Crouch Jr. after the Triwizard Tournament (which would lead me to thinking why Polyjuice wasn't restricted/monitored either...).

Avi//Hufflepuff//9

Veratiserum is just like any other chemical with such potent effects: potentially dangerous. Yes, it should be monitored by the Ministry, but they shouldn’t necessarily control its use. And it’s especially because veratiserum is dangerous in an atypical way (rather than just causing physical harm) that the difference between regulation and control needs to be defined. People have all sorts of rights to privacy and property that people can lay claim to, including intellectual property. Veratiserum could be used to do anything from pulling the idea for the next big book from an author’s head to interrogating criminals, and even those on trial have a right against self incrimination.

Ultimately, though, I think it would be pretty difficult to regulate the use of veratiserum. It’s already been seen time and again that people can get away with just about anything (unregistered Animagi anyone?) without the Ministry every finding out. While I do think veratiserum use needs to be monitored, I can’t really hash out an effective means for doing so.

Caz // Gryffindor // 170

Monitored but not necessarily controlled, I think that's a good solution! I am totally with you that it's just another chemical that is potentially dangerous, there are plenty of potions that can be incredibly dangerous when they get into the wrong hands, so there probably should be a monitoring for all of these potions, but a control would be sheer impossible, especially for Veritaserum. Even monitoring can be potentially hard, because... Seriously, how do you watch something that looks and probably also smells and tastes just like water?

Avi//Hufflepuff//6

Monitoring Veritaserum at all seems like something that would be incredibly difficult to do, although I agree that it should somehow be done. How do you monitor something that is "clear, colourless, and odourless and is almost indistinguishable from water"?

I wonder about the ingredients of it, also, as they could assist or hinder in the monitoring of the brewing of Veritaserum. For example, if the ingredients needed to make it are rarer, then apothecaries might be able to make ~assumptions about who might be trying to brew it based on what ingredients they're purchasing.

I think it SHOULD be controlled, but figuring out a fool-proof way to do so would be difficult (and tedious) work. Not to mention that Veritaserum isn't necessarily fool-proof, either, as it gauges the user's own truths (subjectively) and not actual objective information.

Christa / Slytherin

I wonder about the ingredients of it, also, as they could assist or hinder in the monitoring of the brewing of Veritaserum.

I'm assuming you're talking similar to what is done with Pseudoephedrine in many states? I know locally pharmacists are required by law to keep track of personal information of those purchasing it because of it's use in making methamphetamine, as well as (I think?) limiting the quantity someone is allowed to purchase. I know it's helped lower (GREATLY) the number of meth labs we have, and we're in one of the better known meth areas.

BASICALLY I AGREE, GREAT THINKING CHRISTA AS ALWAYS ♥

Not to mention that Veritaserum isn't necessarily fool-proof, either, as it gauges the user's own truths (subjectively) and not actual objective information.
OHGODYOUARESLYTHERIN

Liz | Gryffindor

Edited 2012-09-16 06:45 (UTC)

I didn't even think about the correlation between illegal brewing of Veritaserum and underground meth labs! This is why wizards should have SOME contact with the Muggle world (because hello, sometimes it's easier to take someone else's ideas and improve on them then come up with your own from scratch). Now I wish I knew the ingredients of Veritaserum, why don't we know this stuff?

On a similar topic, are there other potions that should also be regulated? Like the Regeneration Potion. HOLY CRAP, I DON'T WANT JUST ANYONE BEING ABLE TO MAKE THAT. I mean, even Polyjuice is HUGELY sitting in the gray area when it comes to ~ethical potions, and that's one that appears FREQUENTLY in the series.

LOL HOW IS THAT A SLYTHERIN COMMENT PLS EXPLAIN TO ME.

Christa / Slytherin

Contact with Muggles would definitely help in this situation, I think. They've (lol speaking as if I'm not one~~) come up with some ways to effectively regulate substances, despite everything else they may have done wrong.

OH GOD POLYJUICE. REGULATE THE HELL OF OUT THAT. Squicks me out tbh.

I think Love Potions, definitely, should be regulated. Besides having the same squick factor as Polyjuice, we definitely don't want another Voldemort on our hands. (The fact that it seemed so easy for SCHOOLCHILDREN to get really bothered me, especially seeing as how effective they were!) Felix Felicis also, although is that already monitered (in term of Quidditch) or am I remembering that wrong?

Slytherin as in you recognized a grey area. I've always seen Veritaserum as "exposing truths" and truths as absolute black and white. I hadn't even considered there BEING a grey area of subjectiveness to it. THE WORLD IS BLACK AND WHITE, CHRISTA. #GRYFFINDOR

Liz | Gryffindor

Edited 2012-09-16 07:04 (UTC)

I think it's absolutely insane that Polyjuice is not regulated! We all know what this lead lead to, if not yet in the second book, definitely after the entire Barty Crouch Jr. disaster and even then it's still not regulated, which kind of freaks me out. Love Potions should also be regulated, and eww the imagination of love potions in Voldemort's hands is kind of scary! I don't think if Felix Felicis is monitored in the hands of Quidditch but just that it's generally forbidden to use these kinds of things as doping before an actual game, so I don't know if that counts as monitoring/regulation. In the end, Veritaserum just reveals the truth and doesn't actually do anything to those who drink it, in the sense of changing them or their behaviour. Sure, this can be dangerous as well - actualyl it can be pretty damn dangerous, but still, look at all those other potions that aren't monitored either.

Avi//Hufflepuff//5

Love Potions should also be regulated, and eww the imagination of love potions in Voldemort's hands is kind of scary!

Lol I was actually referencing that he was created with the abuse of a love potion, hence why he can't love and is so evil -- so reasonably, if another child were to result from a love potion they too could become like Voldemort. DNW another one. BUT YES, VOLDEMORT WITH LOVE POTIONS WOULD ALSO BE SCARY.

Liz | Gryffindor

You're right, monitoring Veritaserum would be incredibly hard. First of all, it's very, very rare and second of all it really looks just like water, and you honestly cannot spot it unless you control like... Everything, and no one would like that. Monitoring the brewing of Veritaserum would be kind of an option to at least get a hint of control into the entire thing, but... Yeah, the ingredients would be nice to know for that too.

Avi//Hufflepuff//4

Of course it should be monitored, if for nothing else because what would happen if it got to someone in charge of a large business? The Headmaster of one of the major schools? A politician? Not only could money be stolen, important positions lost due to the spilling of confidential information, but lives could be put at risk. What if a member of the government or Aurors were given Veritaserum by an enemy and were forced to give away locations and names of undercover agents or plans to capture criminals?

I agree with Christa, it would be very difficult to regulate and that it should be regulated the way certain drugs in the States already are; track who is buying what, and maybe find a way to guard against it.

As for if the Ministry should be able to use it, it is a violation of human rights isn't it? It should only be used in extreme circumstances, and a third unbiased party should be the judge of that, like an ambassador from another country etc. to decide so that we avoid it being personal. Ministry access to it should be limited, not just anyone should be able to approve it. Yes, if Bellatrix lestrange was captured, give it to her, but someone needs to prevent petty criminals like Mundungus from getting it, because as stated; even criminals have rights.

Kerie//Slytherin

You're right, in the wrong hands Veritaserum can be pretty dangerous - I never thought about what would happen if an enemy would give it to an unercover agent, that'd truly be a disaster. We all know that the truth can be a dangerous weapon, especially when forced out by the abuse of a potion,b ut I already said it, there are so many potions that could be abused to lead thew orld into destruction and generally into a huge disaster, so technically all potions would have to be monitored, not only Veritaserum in particular.

Avi//Hufflepuff//3

I definitely think that there should be some sort of regulation when it comes to Veritaserum. The potion always gave off a bad vibe, probably because of Snape, when he told Harry that he might accidentally slip some into his pumpkin juice. But like Christa said, it would be so hard to keep track of. And as for who should be making it, ideally it would be people that would have a good use for it (I'm guessing some position in the law enforcement department?) but with apothecaries all over (I'm assuming that the one in Diagon Alley isn't the only one around), wouldn't anyone be able to make the potion? Unless the ingredients were rare (which we don't know) and you could control how much of a certain ingredient a person buys, but then wouldn't they be able to shop at different places to get the essential ingredients? All I'm picturing are a bunch of loopholes that people wizards would find to make the potion if it were heavily regulated.

When it should be used is a bit easier to answer I think. Serious cases, like murder and such, would be a good use for the potion, but minor things like, I don't know, vandalism, I wouldn't see it being necessary.

Michelle/Gryffindor

Sure, Snape didn't give it the best reputation by telling Harry that, nor did Umbridge by using it against students for her questioning sessions and I am absolutely against the abuse of Veritaserum, but technically, every potion can be abused, not only Veritaserum so technically every potion should also be regulated (and as Mari-Linn said below, there are so many potions that are not regulated and that can be much more dangerous than Veritaserum). Also, I'm agreeing with Christa, it would be incredibly hard to keep track of, too.

Avi//Hufflepuff//2

For the sake of debate, I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit and say Veritaserum SHOULDN'T be monitored. There are plenty of other potions that have the potential to be incredibly dangerous, debilitating, invasive, etc., that aren't strictly controlled substances.

For example, Polyjuice Potion seems to be easy enough for a twelve-year-old to brew (sure, Hermione was intelligent, but she was still only twelve). I'm a bit surprised that it was used so frequently - and without scruple - throughout the series. It directly violates another person in an incredibly intimate way. There's a huge amount of room for exploitation here. Other potions that are taught at Hogwarts also have the potential to be quite invasive. The Forgetfulness Potion, for instance, causes memory loss, and it's taught to first years. In their youth, I can't imagine them having many qualms over using it to make someone forget something embarrassing/unfair/etc. they did. The Elixir to Induce Euphoria (taught sixth year) is supposed to make the drinker inexplicably happy. This sounds all good-and-well - like Veritaserum and the Forgetfulness Potion, however, if given to someone without their consent, could be equally invasive and useful for getting what you want out of the person, in the right situation. Felix Felicis could be used to lie, cheat, get away with murder, etc, and yet remains uncontrolled, outside of not being able to use it during sporting events. Even love potions, while banned at Hogwarts, don't seem to be illegal/controlled in and of themselves, and they force one person to feel artificial love and/or lust for another.

I won't even touch upon all the charms, curses, etc. that go unregulated, for the sake of keeping this brief. In short, I guess my point is that there are a lot of other potions and spells that can be used to affect and/or violate those around others against their will. It doesn't make much sense to me to regulate one without regulating them all, which would be nearly impossible to do and stall advancement/innovation of magic drastically. So, I don't think Veritaserum should be regulated. Instead, the antidote should be more circulated and easily accessible.

Mari-Linn//Slytherin

Edited 2012-09-16 11:17 (UTC)

Yes! I absolutely agree with you that there are several other potions who aren't regulated either but should be much more rather than Veritaserum; Amortentia that causes this unheatlhy obsession ~~and can even lead to poisoning~~, Felix Felicis in the hands of Lord Voldemortcould have lead to even more devastation, and Polyjuice... Well we know how that ended. After all, Veritaserum only makes you tell the truth. And I think that one should really question a world where something that makes you tell teh truth should be regulated. Though, having an accessible antidote to it can reall ybe kind of helpful.

Avi//Hufflepuff//1

It's kind of crazy, if you think about it, all the curses and jinxs and potions and whatever that they teach kids and just the crazy amount of power they hold by knowing such things. I guess that is part of why they are forbidden to do magic outside of school until they are 17. Maybe they figure it can be stopped and controlled more in school and by the time they turn 17, they are hopefully mature enough to not be using all these things in ways they shouldn't.

But anyway, back to your point, I do agree that it would be non-sensical to regulate one and not all the others, and it would probably be impossible to regulate everything, but maybe they could at least have general laws about these things, along with — as you said — readily available antidotes!

Kristine | Puff

To be honest, I really don't know what to think about the handling of Vertaserum. There sure are a bunch of potions that have to be monitored and controlled because otherwise everything would end in pure chaos, but I am quite unsure if Veritaserum should be handled as one of those. For example, look at Polyjuice Potion! Polyjuice in the wrong hands can lead to chaos and destruction and disasters like in the Triwizard Tournament, and Veritaserum doesn't do that. On the opposite actually, Veritaserum only makes you tell the truth, nothing more. Sure, now one could find the point of that the truth, once revealed, can lead to disaster, chaos and destruction as well - which unfortuantely is true - but telling the truth should be, unless in very few exceptional situations, self-evident anyway, so no one who doesn't have anything to hide will have to fear anything about Veritaserum,b ecause it won't have a single effect on them. Sure, Veritaserum, too can be abused (for instance, Snape's threat about putting it into Harry's pumpkin juice or, more severely, Umbridge's sessions with students) but really, technically any potion could be abused. So perhaps it would be smart to maybe monitor Veritaserum a tiny little bit, lay the focus on different, much more dangerous potions.

Avi//Hufflepuff//216

I am not sure if Veritaserium needs to be controlled. There are many other potions which can lead to utter chaos if the wrong people use them. Veritaserum can be used for the “wrong” side too, if someone who shouldn’t have it uses it but most of the time it is used for something good.
I think what should be controlled is that people need to know that someone put Veritaserum in their drink. I think that no one should be under the influence of Veritaserum if they don’t want to be. Because even though it only makes you say the truth not everyone wants to spill their whole life to someone else.

Jassy/Gryff

Yeah, I'm really not sure either. You said it well, there are so many other potions that can lead to big chaos and that aren't controlled either, but on the other hand - which is somethign I never really thought about when making my initial comment - Veritaserum can, too. Sure, it only makes you tell the truth, but the truth is something that can lead into disasters and destruction. I totally agree with you though that people should definitely know they're about to drink Veritaserum; it utterly freaks me out to think about having Veritaserum or any other potion in my tea that I'm drinking, not knowing about anything.

Avi//Hufflepuff//10

Veritaserum absolutely must be regulated in some way, shape or form. Even if it is difficult to prepare, there is the possibility that students could use it for untoward purposes, dishonest people could sneak it into people's drinks, et cetera.

There should be a way to determine if Veritaserum has been added to a drink. For example, perhaps a drink infected with Veritaserum could turn an unnatural color, instantly freeze into a block of ice or start to smell of unwashed socks--something to deter people from drinking it without knowing what is happening. If Veritaserum is administered, it should be with the full consent of the brewer and the taker.

Yes, in legal matters, there is a reason for the use of Veritaserum, but again, it must be done with the knowledge of all involved. If you can make the Unbreakable Vow with just words and wand, there has to be some way to sign a sort of consent form for the use of Veritaserum. Maybe the potion will refuse to be poured unless the consent form is signed. That way, people of all brewing levels can make the potion and use it, but only for Doing the Right Thing. Which is, of course, a very Hufflepuff thing to say.

Emma//Hufflepuff//210 words

On the surface Veritaserum seems pretty harmless. I mean, it’s just a truth-telling potion. But I believe that any potion (drug, medicine, whatever) should be regulated in at least some way, because giving it to someone without them knowing is essentially giving them a mind-altering drug without their consent, which is all kinds of wrong. It might normally be used for good, but that doesn’t mean people aren’t going to use it in nefarious ways. Like what would stop someone using it on someone to try and get information that they shouldn’t have? Or kids who are able to brew it using it on a classmate to get them to reveal embarrassing secrets? Obviously, one of those scenarios is much worse than the other, but that doesn’t make either of them right.

Though all that said, I agree with Christa above. I am not really sure how you would regulate it, unless there is a particular ingredient that can be carefully controlled. I also agree there are other potions that need regulating more, but that doesn’t mean this one doesn’t either.

Kristine | Puff | 181 words

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Potions Club: Term XXIV - Activity #1

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