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RESTRICTED SECTION: SHORT STORY DISCUSSION

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"THE LOTTERY" SHORT STORY DISCUSSION
(the book discussion is above this discussion)

It's time for the two readings discussions!

Rules, Regulations, and Points:

This discussion will run much like the debates held in the main community. To earn points, be sure to heed the following:
-The comment is at least five sentences long.
-The comment stays on topic. No personal attacks or arguments will be tolerated.
-The comment is signed. If you accidentally forget to sign it, please delete the comment and repost it with your name and house in it. No name/house= no points.
-Remember to comment with your subject in the subject line. Like "Christine/Phantom," for example. That way, people can more readly track discussions.

Points will be awarded as follows:
-10 points for your first comment (this will only be awarded once. Not twice, once for each discussion)
-50 points to the top commenter, one in the novel and and one in the short story discussion.
-40 points for second, one for novel and one for short story discussion
-30 points for third, one for novel and one for short story discussion.

Discussions will end Friday, March 24th. This will give you all two full weeks for discussion. Don't hesitate to ask me any questions!

Anna M // Restricted Section Mod

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

does the discussion/debate start in this post? What are the books again?

This is an antiquated ritual that has no place in the towns anymore, as evidenced by neighboring towns discontinuing their lottery. The whole ceremony has been reduced to a quick call of names and then a finishing of the job. The citizens don't know why they do this or even that the ceremony used to include some sort of purpose for their actions. Why does no one disagree publicly with this practice? There are characters who are very nervous and don't seem to agree with it, why do they still hold themselves to this ritual slaughter when they are the only ones who expect it of themselves?

This could all be ended if one person had the nerve to say no before the excitement of the afternoon was upon them.

These people gather yearly to slowly destroy a member of their small town at random. This person has committed no crime and yet the community is ready to completely separate themselves from who ever is chosen in one moment and kill them the next. It isn't plausible that in a seemingly normal town a child could detach themselves from their parent and throw rocks that kill them or that the adults who have grown up with the victim could live with the results of their actions. Especially when this ceremony no longer has any recognized purpose. A town small enough that everyone knows EVERYone else and all of their children can not be made to be that dehumanized on only one day of the year.

I completely agree with you. I think it is a case of not being the one to stand out or speak out against the masses. It is a type of self preservation, not wanting to mark yourself out as different or trouble, or perhaps even a potential target.

There were many unanswered questions which I think are also in the minds of many of the townsfolk, such as why the lottery began, and why don't they just stop? It was remarked in the story that other neighbouring towns had stopped their lotteries, but people said that it was a bad idea and would lead to disruption. Is this what they really believed or what they felt they should say?

What do you think would happen if someone did have the nerve to say no?

Pixie // Hufflepuff

I think Shirley Jackson is making a deliberate attack on tradition here. The idea of the 'lottery' is almost comical in a sick way. I mean, the purpose of it is to make the crops grow. How ridiculous is that? But if you think about it, how many traditions are out there that are just completely ridiculous and pointless?

acidroses//Ravenclaw

Beyond the individual, I think it's also about the people's (as a group) stubborn refusal to see the possibility of change. People cling so much to what they know. Even in real life. It's so difficult to change a ritual like this, especially in a large group of people. Some people are just afraid of new things, the unknown.

acidroses//Ravenclaw

(ack! I wrote a huge comment there but LJ just ate it! ...I hope I can remember what I said!)

I toally agree with you! That's exactly what I thought when I first read it. The dehumanisation and friends and children turning against people reminded me of many dystopian novels, such as 1984, Brave New World and Handmaid's Tale. However, in those novels, people were living with a constant, daily fear, not one that comes just once a year.

This raises the interesting point of how the way you are raised might shape you. In the story a sixteen year old boy (I think...?) picks for the first time, yet even this fairly young person, did not say no. I feel that the stroy is written so that the families seem indistinguishable from each other and blend together, so that in the end not even a sixteen year old boy stands out from the crowd.

Pixie // Hufflepuff

I don't think it was an attack on all tradition, though. I think that it was an attack on traditions that we follow blindly, with a refusal to see their harm. Sure, lots of traditions are silly and pointless, but in and of themselves, traditions aren't necessarily dangerous. The danger is in the fear to not do exactly what the tradition demands - to not criticise it, or really think about it.

I've always felt that The Lottery is more about the sheep mentality than tradition. Tradition just happens to showcase that particular mentality quite well. "Let's kill someone all together! Let's not protest the idea! Let's get caught up in how cool it is to kill someone and completely miss the point that we're killing someone, cuz everyone else is doing it too!"

(My apologies for having to delete the unsigned comment.)

- Becker, Slytherin

I agree with you that it is more an attack on following tradition and what others do blindly, than an attack on tradition per se.

It makes you wonder why no one questions the actions of an entire town's killing of an innocent person. I think that The Lottery is an attack on lethary and resistance to change more than an attack on tradition. I feel that Jackson puts across the idea of going along with the crowd being easier than standing up and making a difference, even if it is detrimental to others.

Pixie // Hufflepuff

I made a comment to the next thread down that I think the story focuses a lot on the "sheep mentality" and without that dehumanization that you're talking about, I don't think any attempt at that would have been successful. Dehumanization is definitely a big part of the story.

I think by the time the story is set, the town has reached a point where they don't see each other as humans anymore - at least not in the way we define human. The only way I can see people doing that to each other is if the dehumanization is constant throughout the year. Everyone around you is your potential murder victim and your potential murderer. How could you ever learn to trust someone fully and have them as your equal in that enviroment? The results of it can't just come out one day a year. There must be consequences of it in every day life, and we just don't see them within the story.

That is definitely no normal town the rest of the year.

- Becker, Slytherin

Sorry, I should probably reword what I said because I definitely didn't mean all tradition.

I agree with what you say about mob mentality but I do think some of them have an idea what they're doing. Based on what the old man said about making the crops grow (it was a rhyme but I don't remember it exactly), perhaps some of them realize that it's wrong to kill a person. However, they justify their act because they feel it's necessary.

I feel like mob mentality is more of an influence in the younger members of the town. The children at the beginning piling rocks have less of a grasp on life and death so they just follow the crowd. They see this almost as a game. But I think as people get older, they do start questioning things. The thing is that, they've doing this for all their life and it's just not easy to quit things that you've been doing for so long.

Tina//Ravenclaw

Yeah, I think of the great examples of that is the little boy at the end helping in the murder of his own mother. I mean, it's his mom! However young he is, you would still think he'd understand that. That scene is just so disturbing. At this point, I don't think he see her as a human anymore, much his mother.

Tina // Ravenclaw

I agree with that. You worded what I wanted to convey very well! :-)

I suppose after so many years of the tradition, it's quite possibly gotten to the point where dissent isn't an option. It's not necessarily because the people are lethargic NOW... But they were lethargic BEFORE, when they allowed this to start happening. As time went on with no complaints, the idea that one could complain would erode, until - perhaps - no one complains simply because they don't know how. If they had all the energy in the world to complain, they wouldn't know how to direct it.

Perhaps she's also saying that to be lethargic now can lead to huge problems down the road. Even if it seems like it wouldn't hurt too much NOW to not protest, we have to think of what we can lose later. It's terrifying enough to stand by to let that happen, but more terrifying to think that we could turn ourselves into people who can no longer even conceive of intervening.

- Becker, Slytherin

I think those kids are a product of their raising. They're raised by parents who kill people. Their older siblings kill people. They learn by watching these people that they are one day going to kill people.

I've always imagined the kids waiting for the day like they would a special day with Grandma helping cook a special meal, or a day with Grandad doing "repairs". It's a symbol to them that, even as kids, they're getting to participate in their future adult world. Sometimes, killing Mom is just part of that adult world. So, in the moment,the excitment of participation overwhelms the idea that he is killing his mother, you know? He probably doesn't understand what he's doing, not really.

- Becker, Slytherin

I definitely got that impression. It can't just be one day a year that the town loose any sense of self or identity. I felt there was no real sense of belonging or caring that must be prevalent throughtout he year. Why else would a mother put her 12 year old daughter in for such an ordeal?

I can imagine the townsfolk wandering around, being very pleasent to each other, with fake smiles on their faces and making polite, but trivial conversation, never really trusting each other. At the lottery itself all conversation seemed to be quite trivial. No one wants to let their guard down and I feel that the town woudl have a similar atmosphere any day of the year.

Pixie // Hufflepuff

I don't disagree that some probably do grasp what they're doing on some level, but I'm not sure I agree they grasp it enough to realize it should be stopped. How long has this been going on? We can't say. They can't say anymore. Does anyone in that town even conceive of a world where this isn't normal? They haven't ever lived another way; they might not realize another way exists.

You can change and protest your lifestyle, even when you aren't aware that other possibilities for life exist, but it must be much more difficult. It isn't just saying, "Oh, this needs to stop." It's also having to teach yourself without help from any societal ideals that it's wrong, then having to stand up to it. If life isn't valued in the society, would you automatically being to value life and question actions that as you age? I honestly don't know if those kids would.

- Becker, Slytherin

That's true, I suppose it wouldn't seem wrong or abnormal to him if that's the world he's gown up in. He probably expected it of himself and maybe even looked forward to the day he coudl take part. How worrying.

What that part really did remind me of was young men in tribes having to pass rituals to become a man of the tribe. Unfortunately, in this tribe/town, this is done by stoning someone to death.

Pixie // Hufflepuff

I love the way you put that. I can imagine that at the beginning, when the lottery first came into being, many might have believed in it, but I can't believe everyone did.

And you're right, standing up and dissenting then would have been different, perhaps more expected by the community even? At least at the implementation of the lottery it would have been seen as an appropriate time to object.

Now though, is it too late? Would anyone's view be heard if they objected the the lottery on the day in the story?

Pixie // Hufflepuff

That gets me thinking. Do you think Jackson was criticising our own society's tendancies to be two-faced in her story? I think she might have been at least thinking about it. There's an awful lot of saying one thing and meaning another in our relations with others, and most people keep themselves rather closed off as a necessity.

The distance we keep from others, even friends and family, could be looked at as dehumanizing. At the least, it probably isn't something Jackson thought was an ideal way to live life (or so I felt from what I read in the story).

- Becker, Slytherin.

The discussion for the short story "The Lottery" is in this post. The discussion for the book, Phantom of the Opera will be up as soon as it gets through the mod queue (hopefully some time today).

Anna M

Now though, is it too late? Would anyone's view be heard if they objected the the lottery on the day in the story?

I think the answer is a "Yes, but..." They're going to be the annoying young whippersnappers at first, eh? But one says something, plants the seed... then another, then another, then another. Just because something has always been that way doesn't mean it always will be.

But I think that because it is a small town, it would be longer in coming. It's very closed off; these whippersnappers haven't got outside influences to show them a society that doesn't dehumanize its members.

I think change would be easier with a wider base of people Small towns always seem to hold onto the mob mentality longer than the big cities, which are often centres of change.

- Becker, Slytherin

Der of course everyone's going to say how wrong, and it should be discontinued. It should go without saying.

That's our cultural backup. I saw a made-for-tv movie based on this short story that did it a bit more justice, I think.

In the show, the villagers did this yearly using the person drawn in the lottery as a scapegoat for all their sins. They poured their sin and hate into that one person, a stand-in for Christ, I think because someone long ago interpreted a Biblical passage as such.

The filmmaker gave an explanation of why the stoning was necessary and continued. The interwoven story was a love story between a local and an "outsider." I don't remember any more details.

It's creepy, but it does have an underlying point.
Shirley Jackson's story "The Lottery" was published in the June 28, 1948. It is no accident that it was published in the New Yorker in the midst of World War II. That it vividly describes herd mentality and dehumanization of ones' own out of tradition is no accident.

There's a really good essay on the piece located here (http://www.netwood.net/~kosenko/jackson.html) by Peter Kosenko.

Shirley Jackson refused interviews, and gave only a cryptic answer when asked, by her stunned public, why she had written this horrific piece about an "average New England Village."

It is my firm belief she wrote it in response to the climate of the times. The Japanese, Germans, and Italians had been villified and revealed as an "other," but in mere decades prior (and after) they were just other world citizens. They had scapegoated the Chinese, Jews, and French respectively, a never-ending cycle of scapegoating and murder.

Karina Black//Ravenclaw

You're referring to ideological mechanism.

Karina Black//Ravenclaw

I don't know why, but when I read this story I thought of slavery. This could be completely wrong, because my knowledge of history is about a grade 9 education (sorry I'm fourteen :P). People would treat others badly. Why did they treat others badly, because "respectable" people told them it was right. They believe in that person, so they believe what they say. No one wants to stand up to that person, because they think they are "less respectable" and no one will follow them.

kellerton//ravenclaw

Cool, thanks. I hadn't encountered that term before.

- Becker, Slytherin

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