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RESTRICTED SECTION: SHORT STORY DISCUSSION

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(hey mods, would you mind putting a link up to the application on the userinfo page?)

"THE LOTTERY" SHORT STORY DISCUSSION
(the book discussion is above this discussion)

It's time for the two readings discussions!

Rules, Regulations, and Points:

This discussion will run much like the debates held in the main community. To earn points, be sure to heed the following:
-The comment is at least five sentences long.
-The comment stays on topic. No personal attacks or arguments will be tolerated.
-The comment is signed. If you accidentally forget to sign it, please delete the comment and repost it with your name and house in it. No name/house= no points.
-Remember to comment with your subject in the subject line. Like "Christine/Phantom," for example. That way, people can more readly track discussions.

Points will be awarded as follows:
-10 points for your first comment (this will only be awarded once. Not twice, once for each discussion)
-50 points to the top commenter, one in the novel and and one in the short story discussion.
-40 points for second, one for novel and one for short story discussion
-30 points for third, one for novel and one for short story discussion.

Discussions will end Friday, March 24th. This will give you all two full weeks for discussion. Don't hesitate to ask me any questions!

Anna M // Restricted Section Mod

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I think Shirley Jackson is making a deliberate attack on tradition here. The idea of the 'lottery' is almost comical in a sick way. I mean, the purpose of it is to make the crops grow. How ridiculous is that? But if you think about it, how many traditions are out there that are just completely ridiculous and pointless?

acidroses//Ravenclaw

I don't think it was an attack on all tradition, though. I think that it was an attack on traditions that we follow blindly, with a refusal to see their harm. Sure, lots of traditions are silly and pointless, but in and of themselves, traditions aren't necessarily dangerous. The danger is in the fear to not do exactly what the tradition demands - to not criticise it, or really think about it.

I've always felt that The Lottery is more about the sheep mentality than tradition. Tradition just happens to showcase that particular mentality quite well. "Let's kill someone all together! Let's not protest the idea! Let's get caught up in how cool it is to kill someone and completely miss the point that we're killing someone, cuz everyone else is doing it too!"

(My apologies for having to delete the unsigned comment.)

- Becker, Slytherin

I agree with you that it is more an attack on following tradition and what others do blindly, than an attack on tradition per se.

It makes you wonder why no one questions the actions of an entire town's killing of an innocent person. I think that The Lottery is an attack on lethary and resistance to change more than an attack on tradition. I feel that Jackson puts across the idea of going along with the crowd being easier than standing up and making a difference, even if it is detrimental to others.

Pixie // Hufflepuff

I agree with that. You worded what I wanted to convey very well! :-)

I suppose after so many years of the tradition, it's quite possibly gotten to the point where dissent isn't an option. It's not necessarily because the people are lethargic NOW... But they were lethargic BEFORE, when they allowed this to start happening. As time went on with no complaints, the idea that one could complain would erode, until - perhaps - no one complains simply because they don't know how. If they had all the energy in the world to complain, they wouldn't know how to direct it.

Perhaps she's also saying that to be lethargic now can lead to huge problems down the road. Even if it seems like it wouldn't hurt too much NOW to not protest, we have to think of what we can lose later. It's terrifying enough to stand by to let that happen, but more terrifying to think that we could turn ourselves into people who can no longer even conceive of intervening.

- Becker, Slytherin

I love the way you put that. I can imagine that at the beginning, when the lottery first came into being, many might have believed in it, but I can't believe everyone did.

And you're right, standing up and dissenting then would have been different, perhaps more expected by the community even? At least at the implementation of the lottery it would have been seen as an appropriate time to object.

Now though, is it too late? Would anyone's view be heard if they objected the the lottery on the day in the story?

Pixie // Hufflepuff

Now though, is it too late? Would anyone's view be heard if they objected the the lottery on the day in the story?

I think the answer is a "Yes, but..." They're going to be the annoying young whippersnappers at first, eh? But one says something, plants the seed... then another, then another, then another. Just because something has always been that way doesn't mean it always will be.

But I think that because it is a small town, it would be longer in coming. It's very closed off; these whippersnappers haven't got outside influences to show them a society that doesn't dehumanize its members.

I think change would be easier with a wider base of people Small towns always seem to hold onto the mob mentality longer than the big cities, which are often centres of change.

- Becker, Slytherin

During the French Revolution, the nobles who were beheaded maintained their dignity, as was their birthright and royal duty. They laid their heads down calmly on the guillotine, and thus were easily dehumanized. They were slaughtered one by one.

The things they had done, and the way they had lived so frivolously without regard to their "subjects" starving and dying in the streets was cause, yes, for a redress of the status quo.

The mob didn't see them as people until one young Viscountess, I believe, lost it. She screamed, kicked, fought, and plead for her life. It is said that the cheers of the crowd grew quiet as she was dragged up the stairs to the platform where the guillotine sat.

She begged for them to spare her in the name of her children, who were in the cart or on the sidelines sobbing. Suddenly, these "monsters" who actually simply lived the way they were raised and thought they were meant to, were human again. As human as any of them. And in fact, when they had run out of nobles to slaughter, charges were drummed up against other upper- middle class citizens. Their heads were cut and their blood was shed to appease an ever insatiable crowd.

I can't remember the woman's name, and I can't find anything on Google. I remember this story from French History classes like 10 years ago at the Univ. (fark I'm old. :P)

I think you're absolutely correct about this woman planting the seed of doubt into the minds and ears of those around her. It was said, "Let's get this over with," rather than "Let's DO THIS! RAWK! RAAHHRRR!!!"

Karina Black//Ravenclaw

Oh yes what a good point! I think if she had just gone with her head held high it would have been quite a different feel about it to the way she kicked up a fuss about how it 'wasn't fair!'

It did make her seem more real, less dehumanised somehow. That was the first point where i said to myself "Yes! that's exactly what I'd say!" (ok not exactly but it was about time someone kicked up a stink!)

Pixie // hufflepuff

Nodnod. I can't imagine how none of them thought they might be next.

I have to wonder if her drawing the marked one was an accident. She seemed like such a pain in the ass! ;)

Karina Black//Ravenclaw

Hehe yep. If I was that old man with the tatty black box, I'd have done a wee bit of slight of hand to get her the marked paper that's for sure!

Pixie // Hufflepuff

I think that's what she was trying to insinuate.

I almost think... because her husband was passed over due to a broken leg, and everyone else was an able-bodied male if she wasn't specificially chosen due to her gender and attitude. It wouldn't take much to stack the deck (or box) against her..

Karina Black//Ravenclaw

I'm glad I'm discussing this with people, I'd never have thought of loads of these things without doing this (I've been too scared to participate in one of these until now).

I thought you'd all think I was stooopid :s

Pixie // Hufflepuff

No.. I'm learning there are a LOT of smart Hufflepuffs!!!!
I mean that in the best way possible. :)
er
I mean that better than anyone will take it, and as a compliment to you.
I mean...
you know what i mean

oh holy hell KARINA SHUT UP! :)

LIKE ME! >.>

I loved how when you were stamping me that you said you liked when I participated because I made you think. Couldn't have had a better compliment from you. It made my blush :)

Jen//Hufflpuff

Sorry, I should probably reword what I said because I definitely didn't mean all tradition.

I agree with what you say about mob mentality but I do think some of them have an idea what they're doing. Based on what the old man said about making the crops grow (it was a rhyme but I don't remember it exactly), perhaps some of them realize that it's wrong to kill a person. However, they justify their act because they feel it's necessary.

I feel like mob mentality is more of an influence in the younger members of the town. The children at the beginning piling rocks have less of a grasp on life and death so they just follow the crowd. They see this almost as a game. But I think as people get older, they do start questioning things. The thing is that, they've doing this for all their life and it's just not easy to quit things that you've been doing for so long.

Tina//Ravenclaw

I don't disagree that some probably do grasp what they're doing on some level, but I'm not sure I agree they grasp it enough to realize it should be stopped. How long has this been going on? We can't say. They can't say anymore. Does anyone in that town even conceive of a world where this isn't normal? They haven't ever lived another way; they might not realize another way exists.

You can change and protest your lifestyle, even when you aren't aware that other possibilities for life exist, but it must be much more difficult. It isn't just saying, "Oh, this needs to stop." It's also having to teach yourself without help from any societal ideals that it's wrong, then having to stand up to it. If life isn't valued in the society, would you automatically being to value life and question actions that as you age? I honestly don't know if those kids would.

- Becker, Slytherin

You're referring to ideological mechanism.

Karina Black//Ravenclaw

Cool, thanks. I hadn't encountered that term before.

- Becker, Slytherin

I completely agree that it was an attack on traditions and why we keep these traditions going. But I can aslo say that thought there might seem to be a lot of traditions that might seem silly to us have a true basis to people. If I can bring up obsessive compulsive disorder, it's the same principle that things someone does over and over again seems so stupid to other people but for the person doing they fear that something bad will happen if they don't do it. Like my completely irrational fear that if I don't touch the alarm as I walk down the hall and make sure it's flat against the wall we're going to get broken in to or the house is gonna catch on fire. >.>

Jen//Hufflepuff

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